Does no one know about the millennium, a period of teaching, after which satan is loosed for a season to test those that followed him in the first earth age. It might have been just as well to not press it. Brimstone used to be added to fuel the incineration. Scholars have long claimed that Gehenna was a garbage dump where fires were burned. Does that make the Bible false? Hell, Gehenna the garbage dump. As with the legend about the rope around the high priests ankle, this popular myth seems to have originated in Jewish circles in the Middle Ages. Paul turned a Christian over to satan for the DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH. Can you confirm whether this was traditional practice? Then he mentions the case of those who would cross from the place of suffering over to "Abraham's bosom". What the text clearly says is that Sodom serves as an example linked to those suffering in eternal fire. Maybe you guys think you are as smart as our all knowing all seeing creator. You can also spare us quasi-racist ideas like >>legalistic "glasses" that came into the church from the Latin converts<<, Jude 1:7 "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. Wild animals fought over scraps of food along the edges of the heap. For now, just notice the term as . "Even when the term "aionian" is applied to God Himself, this does not mean it is describing Him as eternal. I cannot vouch for Jerome, his meaning or his wording. We can trace the develope a transition of the place of the dead from a pit to a water filled pit and then to similar with fire. Jerome also used the phrase "en aeturnum et ultra" ("in eternity and beyond") in his commantary on Collosians. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, and animals would be dumped. Chief among the modern ideas surrounding Gehenna is that of a smouldering garbage dump south of Jerusalem where perpetual fires consumed the city waste and the dead bodies of criminals thrown into it. If you are a leader, want to be a leader, or can spell the word leader, this message is for you. Purchasers of the Photo Companion to the Bible and the Pictorial Library of Bible Lands are granted liberal usage rights for the images for personal and educational purposes. What can be beyond eternity? But this doesn't give you the right to twist his words. But if they happened to return next week, would that mean that sinners from Sodom would not be punished for their sins? When death is destroyed the only thing left is life. Not unlike the fire of 2 Thes. If it were "eternal pruning" and this doesn't make sense to you, your problem is with Christ. In the lower part of the Hinnom Valley and Kidron Valley, the city dumped its waste and burned its trash. It smoldered there beneath the surface, incinerating the rotting, smelly garbage. So your attitude "If the Lord had wanted to communicate this" is not only arrogant towards him (he chose his words as he saw fit, not you) but also false: he did clearly communicate this. Concerning this valley, I've heard that the blood of sacrificed Passover lambs ran down this hillside. Though I vehemently disagree with you, I do not think your view stems from bad motives. Reading these posts made me happy to be a conditionist! "At least until a council comes along decades later and says that anyone not confessing a belief in an "eternal hell" is not a Christian? As for the lost, per words of Jesus and apostles, they will die (wages of sin)/be destroyed/perish. Put simply, there is no evidence that the valley was, in fact, a perpetually burning garbage dump. (And note: it's a parable, a story with a lesson, not necessarily a description of actual conditions in the after-life, especially when you become too technical. 'Valley of the son of Hinnom' [1]) is a historic valley surrounding Ancient Jerusalem from the west and southwest. He remarked, Gehenna is a repugnant place, into which filth and cadavers are thrown, and in which fires perpetually burn in order to consume the filth and bones; on which account, by analogy, the judgement of the wicked is called Gehenna.. PS. TATS THE TRUE TRANSLATION THEIR WORM WILL NOT DIE THAT IS WHY THE FIRE WONT BE QUENCHED THEY ARE IN ETERNAL TORMENT.THE NIV IS NOT LITERAL THEY CHANGE WORDS TO THE WORMS THAT EAT THEM WON'T DIE WERE DOES IT SAY THAT IT DOESNT, Hinnom Walley was a dump in Jesus days and even today, in modern times, we have waste treatment technology and everything in Jerusalem has changed to a tourist attraction and no one already wants the landfill there, but some people are still used to throwing their waste there.https://www.google.com/maps/@31.7686626,35.2333475,3a,56.6y,328.92h,103.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szm6A_bN1OCNC7ikOFCcVTw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656, Your email address will not be published. "I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it.". [I have no clue what v.15 you are talking about so you can spare us that.]. ", Ezekiel 16:55 "And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before.". Thanks for the article, I have always wanted to see some evidence for calling associating Gehenna with a burning trash heap. The gulf represents the uncrossable separation it is not meant to keep the saved from going over there because they have no reason to do so, as they are with God and His people. This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a . I find it much easier to explain passages such as Matthew 25:46 in light of the above verses. He does not tell us where he got that information from and that is all we hear of it. "The God of the Eons" is a statement of fact, not of limitation. Even when the term "aionian" is applied to God Himself, this does not mean it is describing Him as eternal. UPDATE (4/29): The views of various scholars on the matter is presented in a new post. The pictures on this website are copyrighted and may be used only with permission. (v.23), "Who is it that is going to go out of the city and look at the worm-eaten, burning bodies?". I don't see why a citizen of God's city should go out, but if they did, they might well see that. It is not "people" who ingore context but you who are grasping at straws of literal nitpicking to justify your beliefs in the light of what Christ or others as recorded in Scripture clearly taught.]. 1:7 where it says Jesus will be revealed from heaven in "blazing fire" and those who do not know God will be eternally destroyed by the fire of his presence, like how Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by eternal fire (p.s. Out of six major "seminaries" in the early church, four taught universal salvation, one taught annihilation (Ephesus)and one taught eternal punishment (Rome). 9:28 or was that Is. If this parable is supposed to teach anything about punishment in the afterlife, you would think that this gulf would not be necessary. must be explained away if you want to cling to a doctrine of eternal torture. No, it means the valley pictured is no longer a steep ravine because it became a landfill, and today is a city park. But that was the exception and in violation of the principles. What church are you talking about? And speaking of context, you are ignoring the context that Jesus is alluding to in this passage, and that is Isaiah 66:23-24. Residents sometimes called it the "valley of the sewer" or "the valley of the pagans." By Jesus' time, the Greek translation of Hinnom Valley, gehenna, became a synonym for hell. It can't. 66:24?. And of course, the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the trash. Because the Hinnom and Kidron Valleys are located on the southeast side of Jerusalem, the prevailing winds carry the winds away from the city. Thank you. Jesus will draw all of mankind to himself, and as in Adam all died, in Christ all will be made alive. Your idea about "universal salvation" among church fathers is wrongheaded. This is getting silly! "After the ages, there will be no need to describe Him to anyone because all will know Him fully, just as they also are known by Him now.". ), the valley was later transformed into a garbage dump for the city of Jerusalem. ", No one. Punishment of this type is eternal. Spare us your pseudo-physics which can teach us nothing about the afterlife in the New Jerusalem. 66:24 says "The THEY SHALL GO FORTH". the creed), negative condemnations ("Whosover says . The references to fire in Is 31.9 and Is 33.14 envisioned Yahweh's power as bringing vengeance on Israel's oppressors (Is 33.10 - 12) rather than a fire . Their meaning cannot be derived from the "object" (which means you assumption that salvation can be eternal but punishment cannot) but from the context and the context in the passage referred above is a parallel structure. According to Chan and Sprinkle "The first reference we have to the Hinnom Valley, or Gehenna, as a town dump is made by a rabbi named David Kimhi in a Commentary, which was written in AD 1200." We should also note that there is no archeological evidence of Gehenna as a garbage dump. You clearly havened thought the whole matter through and would trade in salvation for 20th century sensibilities. They will long to die, but death will flee from them. God is not a torturer. The objection that "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are used in parallel in Matthew 25:46, and therefore aionian must means eternal is based on a false presumption that the "aionian life" which is spoken of would have to come to an end at the same time that the "aionian" punishment does. Todd Bolen, from his bibleplaces blog, rounds up some scholarly sources. Ezekiel indeed prophesies that Sodom, Samaria and Juda would return to their former state. The first post-apostolic council at Nicea was chaired by Gregory Nazianzen who was a universalist. All who accept it. I thought, Anon, you didn't have time. Click the card to flip . Indeed, there is no reason to search further for ancient burning piles of discarded newspapers, product packaging, and junk mail. The three parables you mention also do not say how long the consequences for failure last or whether there is anything else to take place afterward. You however are reading things into the words "aion" and "aionian". "In any case, Gregory Naziznen was allowed to preside over that council.". I believe you need to be alive to feel the effects of punishment. [2] The valley is also known by the name Gehinnom ( G-Hnnm, lit. His judgments result in righteousness, and the end of the Lord is mercy. Where is the record of an uproar over them? Everything! As for Mark 9:44, if you look at Isaiah 66:24 you will see it is bodies that are being eaten by 'worms' and fire. Rate: Ohio Serpent Mound in the News In v.15-16 it seems pretty clear the context of this passage is a universal judgment on all flesh. But there isn't evidence to support this idea. Because the church is not a "club for solving real and apparent biblical contradictions", it is not a "bible study club". Eventually, part of Gei Ben Hinnom became a dump, with constant day and night burning of trash fires emitting a sulfurous stench. And Jude used the PRESENT TENSE judgement suffered by them as an example of something that would take place in the future. Of course, since it was a garbage dump, it was necessary to keep the garbage burning in order to reduce the stench and to limit the number of flies and rats. I brought up a similar situation in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The KJV translates Strong's G1067 in the following manner: hell (9x), hell fire (with G4442) (3x). Ezekiel doesn't utter any either and he doesn't even touch on anything linked to "eternal fire". He must be alive. As a rubbish dump, Gehenna was a place where fire burned constantly and where worms feasted on the garbage, and these images were transferred to the never-ending punishment of the rebellious. The word Gehenna was the Greek transliteration of g-ben-hinnom (the valley of the sons of Hinnom), an actual geographical site in Jerusalem named after a real person. DIANA is a world leader in natural functional solutions for the food, pet food, nutraceuticals, aquaculture and cosmetics industries, and technology leader in plant cell culture, dedicated to the production of active ingredients for food, cosmetics and health. The quotation begins in verse 22. The soul that sinneth it shall DIE, not be given eternal life to burn forever and ever and ever. and rules called canons. 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