Separate of style and structure is less about whether or not you use css or tables. Odds are though they would look at every data point they could so I would think a slower server would mean potentially worse ranking. I just said they were faster, which you proved. I find it hard to believe that anyone who honestly knows how to develop a site well with both tables and divs would ever choose to use tables. Great debate. designing since 1999 started with dreamweaver, handcoding is a pain and for programmers. It could mean one less page they get to crawl on your site. If you develop to standards at most youll need to tweak a few things for Internet Explorer and usually only older versions of IE. Thanks for this. Table cells cooperate very well with each other, the way everyone expects things works. Your layout is really one thats pretty easy to code. However, know that the industry has moved on. I hope I wasnt coming across as bashing tables. In this case, it is almost impossible to get CSS only to render this as desired, either the width or the height of the side banner will be wrong, or the background image will appear to disappear or not be long enough, or be too long, or the content will bleed over into the side banner if you change the width of the browser. If youre asking about the latter thats a good question. Of course that depends on the developer more than the code itself. I think youre asking legitimate questions and Ill do my best to answer. I thought my question BTW why css layout over table layout' was clear from the context but apparently not. Artificial intelligence design advantages: How can AI help to design? They impose a more rigid structure than divs. Here is the CSS code, so far, through Dreamweaver: You might set widths, but text will easily drop to the next line when it reaches whatever width youve set. That you had a problems on a site you were developing doesnt mean my tutorials arent accurate. Just because tables make one thing easier doesnt make them better than divs and css overall. What I will say though is that every person Ive ever met who was equally capable at using both css and tables chooses to use css. I also dont have an issue if you want to use them to display a list of links in a menu. I would have to say,use divs and tables for what they are designed for. Both Fixed and Variable database extents can only be larger than 2 GB when largefiles are enabled with an Enterprise Database license, the OS is enabled for largefiles and user quota/limits allow. How to Play and Pause CSS Animations using CSS Custom Properties ? Its not hard. Examples might be simplified to improve reading and learning. This would be more about inline css or using html attributes like the font tag vs a separate stylesheet. HTML tables impose a more rigid structure on the content than a div. A 10 MS difference is meaningless. As for the I dont need any extra code to get stuff to work for ie when using divs and css, really is that so? Im thinking something in the way the code was set up is preventing that from happening. Theres simply less code to create a div than there is a table with a row and cell. I can understand your frustration, but its not the fault of css. People can build sites without using a table-based layout now and still do. Four-fifths of the way through an assessable project isnt the best time to have to redo a table-based layout. Everything else is really irrelevant. Im not suggesting its trivial to learn css, but its also not accurate to say the language itself is causing your specific layout issues. How is that more maintainable? The issue though was how I was using css and not css itself. We needed three sets of tags to present some content as opposed to the one set of div tags. To do this, add the following CSS to your style.css file: A table-layout value of fixed is generally a good idea to set on your table, as it makes the table behave a bit more predictably by default. Home. There are many things you can say I do, but hype isnt one of them. Having developed and worked on sites both ways Im 100% certain structuring your layout with tables is not the way to go. Better Website Speed For a website to function efficiently, it should have a faster load time. Its only when you dont specify the value that browsers might use different defaults. The border-collapse property sets whether the table borders My questions and concerns are genuine and not an effort to get CSS lovers to defend themselves. When people are having trouble getting a css layout to look the same across browsers its usually more to do with the skills of the designer than with css itself. If you change the formatting of one style sheet, this will affect all of the pages that use it. Let me start by letting you know I fall on the css side of things. There are also dozens of other methods I didnt mention. Its is also much quicker to use tables, and hey, yeah, once in a while it is nice to be able to glance at your code in a wysywig and actually see what it looks like. Versatility: It refers to lots of skills. As far as the speed issues, Google didnt really talk about load times affecting ranking until after I wrote this post. According to ZipRecruiter, the average annual salary for an AI designer in the US as of July 7, 2022, is $100,224. Im not disagreeing with anything you say. The limit isnt the language, its your current skill level in using the language. It was difficult (and very confusing) at the start, but Im now completely clear on why its a better approach. he argument is made by people comparing learning something new to learning something they already know well.. Using isnt semantic and isnt CSS. The complicated css wasnt a requirement. As for your disadvantage I have to disagree. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. I came to web design by way of VB. Then I format the text in CSS adding padding and margins where needed. The pros and cons are supposed to be regarding the setting up of grid layouts using display:table. CSS changes are device friendly. No matter how many times I see this question or people making an argument on behalf of their opinion, the technical answer remains the same. Tuples support multi typed-values, indexes, optimized for lookup, but a lack of schema flexibility. Ive never read about this debate until now, however in the back of my mind I always knew someone(s) was debating it. Make your table markup as simple as possible, and keep things flexible, e.g. CSS doesnt restrict anything. My bad on missing the context of your statement. 7. point: tables I use Dreamweaver template files. Ill reserve judgment on maintenance but I have a hunch Ill be able to go in and make the same changes equally as quickly whether I start with the div or table test pages. Thats actually where the hype is. Global changes are easier: If youre using external styles, you make a change in one place and its automatically propagated to all the pages in the system. I agree that there will always be some people that cling on to tables, but I dont think we will have to suffer too much for much longer. CSS is better in both theory and practice. WebWhat are the advantages to using tables for layout? I am about to take on a new website project, first one in 8 years. Its true that the easiest way may not be the best way, but I dont yet see that the benefits of CSS outweigh the much greater learning curve with regards to these more complex layouts. If your visitors are using IE you need to support IE and whether its the code or the browser that gets things wrong is irrelevant. Tables and grids are not the same thing in web development. I know there are workarounds. Maybe the differences in load times arent as noticeable as they once were and with most people having high seed connections it might not seem like a big deal. Ive done a few and have always used photoshop for layout and then created html tables based on that layout. Web designers needs to use few lines of programming for every page improving site speed. Wow. Discover the best hard disk format for your Mac! Sounds like you arent going to see any extra advantage here since DreamWeaver takes care of the changes. More code leads to more potential for errors. This is Which CSS framework is better Tailwind CSS or Bootstrap ? Im not questioning the benefits of CSS in general. Im not trying to be political, but when Obama kept repeating change a hundred times a day during his campaign I questioned it because change is not the same as progress. WebMoreover, an externally linked CSS file, once loaded the first time, does not have to be reloaded and re-read on every page. The main advantage of CSS is that style is applied consistently across variety of sites. I find that unfortunate, as someone who caught the tail end of the table era I find it much more difficult to maintain a website which uses tables (because of my own lack of experience with tables I suppose) than to administer a website which uses a CSS layout. Let us have a glance on the benefits and drawbacks of CSS. I had not heard about this controversy, being a WYSIWYG kind of guy. Learning how to use Dreamweaver is not the same as learning to write the code. Its quicker to develop with tables Nope. You cant break out of the rigid grid easily. In fact I use them all the time when I want to present data. : Get certifiedby completinga course today! What css function does that? While using W3Schools, you agree to have read and accepted our. I too started out doing HTML with tables, and as soon as I saw the CSS light, Ive never been able to see it any other way. The limiting factor isnt the language itself, its your current skill with the language. Web1. Im amazed people still argue in favor of table-based layout. One of the debates that never seems to go away in the web development community is that of css vs tables and which is better to use for the layout of your site. Its easier because youre more familiar with using tables. John if youre having to adjust margins and paddings and height and width because youre updating text youve done something wrong when setting up the code. Your 2-column layout example could easily be accomplished with a .Net master page. With a table-based layout the only way this would be possible would be to go into every page of your site and change the underlying structure. 1. This debate has been going on for years. Your logo image can either be a background image on the header div thats not repeated or a regular image inside the div. Funny. I didnt say things like css is much faster or place any other qualifier on it. Thanks Craig. Choosing the right storage format is crucial as it affects your disks Im still a little inexperienced to style the whole design in CSS, though. Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of using a table and CSS formatting for displaying the fitness centers hours and fees on the website. Load time is always going to be an issue. Did you read the post? It sounds like youre using tables the same way Im suggesting is fine. If table tags were called tags, nobody would be complaining, and there would be no ongoing debate. Wish me luck. In its simplest form were comparing: Even in the simplest case above you can see tables are already a more complex structure than divs. Appreciate it and I think this post being more recent is the more relevant one. They use less code. 2) Faster Load Times Because of Lighter Code I remember load times being a major issue when I first got started but it doesnt seem to be the case anymore with so few people on dialup. Take two developers, one who is fluent with tables and one who is fluent with divs, hand them a layered PSD file and ask them to code a web page to see who finishes first. The argument is about how to structure a web page. A-143, 9th Floor, Sovereign Corporate Tower, We use cookies to ensure you have the best browsing experience on our website. Feel free to email me and if you dont mind waiting a bit Ill be happy to help. Years ago it moved away from tables and towards divs and css for layout. Out of curiosity can you offer an advantage of table-based layout over divs and css? And heres what Im referring to you saying in your post: The problem most people have when learning to use divs is trying to force them to act like tables instead of allowing them to be what they are.. Much of the time I dont have to write anything specific for IE. I think your experience is similar to what most people whove made the transition from tables to css go through. You do have to put in a little time to learn how to layout a site with css, but once learned its not hard to do. Much of using css for layout is realizing that you dont need to do as much as you think. One debate Im honestly curious about is the best way to go about table type content with CSS, such as using the actual table properties, using display: inline, using float: left, etc wheres that write up? Now I barely have to test my layouts in multiple browsers because Ive learned how to keep them consistent across browsers. Odds are youre finding css hard, because youre trying to make it behave as tables do. So, its important to ensure faster speed. Cmon man! Youll compare each of the arguments against another based on relevant data. I wont restate all the reasons why since I said them in the post already. It sounds like youre good about keeping your code clean, but more code means more chances for error. (Yes, I like clean code too.) WebAdvantages of CSS3 CSS3 provides a consistent and precise positioning of navigable elements. Youre mainly proving my point that those who argue in favor of tables usually havent spent the time to learn to use block level elements like divs and css well. Tables are simply not faster to create. Read the post to find out why. As you mentioned, pages built in tables have to load twice (something I didnt know until reading this post) add to this that the example you showed: clearly illustrates how much extra code is required for tables. any pretty crap i use css on those parts alone. Granted its not the kind of change youre likely to make, but as an example it shows the greater flexibility and control you have in developing with divs. Hopefully people will start accepting table-cell or something similar. No its not rubbish. Whats the deal? There are some new things on the way with css3 too that will make working with divs/css even easier and more flexible. Its a great way to learn. Perhaps this is the reason this debate keeps going on, because this change doesnt look like progress to a lot of people and they feel the benefits dont really outweigh the intuitive design of tables that make design a lot easier for beginners. The argument isnt what a div can do vs what a table can do. CSS, CSS 2, CSS 3 are often quite confusing. Even though browser compatibility is better (or supposed to be) with tables, the lack of flexibility when I inevitably changed my mind about the design meant I basically had to build the whole site again. Just for the entirety of your layout. You pointed out that table cells dont work independently. I think much of the reason css vs tables is still debated is the misinformation people on both sides put out there. Youll have more control over how your page displays with divs that can aid in how a screenreader sees your content, but again you can create equally accessible pages using either approach. I think theres more potential for errors with tables, but I know there are people who can code a search friendly site thats still table-driven. IE and Opera supports CSS as different logic. Style adjustment is more convenient. Your email address will not be published. Its often used as simple data storage, NoSQL. With many sites (big, e commerce sites for example) having many different sections of text and images and other media throughout a page the code just grows and grows, taking browsers longer to load page content. My point about flexibility isnt simply flipping columns. 3. Its more in how you code it where I dont think html tables are the right approach. How does it suggest we should use tables? If you get where Im coming from, please help me understand using logic. Im amazed that in 2013 people are still defending table-based layouts, but whatever. I think it makes them easier to move them around on a single page. Over the past few years Ive been slowly converting them to divs and CSS. Its more about making sure your code for structuring the page and your code for styling that structure arent woven too tightly together. Its true that less code means less potential for show stopping errors, but those show stoppers can exist regardless of your sites structure. Teams. If youre not creating HTML e-mails, or unless you have some overriding need to have part of your page scale because of the amount of content on other parts of your page, theres no reason to use tables for layout. Theres no need for a When using CSS for layout, browsers can cache Most of the time when someone presents code showing the complicated css they needed the problem was their general approach. Columns of equal height? Neither is true. I have used some CSS to style the text, but not the design. My homepage is currently structured with divs. My question to you is Why frame this debate in terms Research another option instead of a table for displaying the CSS works differently on different browsers. Ive read the debates. If you read the post youll see I never once said you couldnt use tables. I disagree with you that both are techniques with little distinction. 8.1 Introduction to Style Sheets . You said I made overhyped performance claims, which I didnt. A div-based layout is: easier to maintain less code and less These bandwidth savings are substantial figures of insignificant tags that are indistinct from a mess of pages. 4. Tables also have distinct dis advantages on mobile devices: You can only squeeze in a small number of columns before the table width causes horizontal scrolling on smaller screens. Is it possible that there are errors in my tutorials? Why css layout over table layout? A table does. In the best case scenario youd be adding at least another table cell to get another block of information compared to adding another div for another block of information, which would grow our code equally. Were not quite there yet with what wed like to do where design is concerned. With a simple table structure the extra time might not be noticeable, but as the structure becomes more complex with more and more tables nested inside each other it is noticeable. If I tired to reply to your comment in Spanish it would take me hours, even days, to put together a few coherent sentences. I dont care what anybody says. Now lets get to some of the myths on both sides that keep this debate going. I think, though I havent used them in years, that tables are far superior for site maintenance in that you do not have to adjust sizes, just add or take away a table cell. Why does it matter how divs are rendered as long as the document written with strong conventions and good semantics? Ive seen these performance claims for div over table all over the web, and many of them assert much faster, rather then simply faster. I agree with you about css3-grids. If the human eye cant tell any difference, then whats the point? If I ever learn CSS completely, Ill use it more often as you cant fight progress but Ill never discount tables from the equation. But now not only is the solution more convoluted with containers i.e the complexity in code grows proportionally with the amount of columns compared to a simple table but we still dont really have equal length columns as its only the containers that are equal length and not the content/sidebar divs themselves. However please dont imply that css cant work for old sites or makes it more difficult to work on an existing table driven site. By a few I mean less than 5. Tables are like having the blocks bolted together and needing all blocks to be bolted before the structure itself holds together. WebUsing tables for layout means that changing the corporate layout will in fact mean changing every single page. I dont think anyone is arguing in favor of html attributes. Menu. Here is a link to an article with more detail. Even though I think css is the better way, Ive seen some very poor and slow loading css driven sites and some pretty well coded and quick table driven sites. That flow is what needs to be eliminated! The same isnt true if youre using divs. I think making your structural elements independent is the better option. And if you want to use a wysiwyg editor, they just dont work properly anymore in 2019. If youre constantly having to fix old code though, I would recommend looking into the feasibility of redeveloping the site. Once to understand the structure and another time to present it. 3) SEO From what I can tell, search engines arent indexing or ranking CSS layouts higher than table layouts. Maybe I just havent searched the web enough. How to check which tab is active using Material UI ? However, you can build a great site using tables and a poor site using css. I still dont know specifically which tutorials you mean, but I dont think Ive written a tutorial that offered the complete code for a website. It doesnt lead to the need for more tags and it doesnt require workarounds. Im not going to stop you. I also kept all my university textbooks just in case I would need them guess what? You also made my exact point as to where tables shine the most, and it has nothing to do with semantics. Disadvantages of OS Maps (3) Scale needed, instantly out of date, doesn't have seasonal changes. In order for a browser to render a page built with tables it needs to read the code on the page twice. There are SOME layouts that to use entirely CSS requires an inordinate amount of extremely messy code to represent. Cant be done, we have faux columns but thats really just green screen trickery in doing so. http://www.taylor-graphics.net/eye_clinic/. between the 2 techniques when in truth, there is little distinction to be made. Do a search for css vs tables or similar and you can find a lot out there. My goal wasnt to bash tables, but to point out why I think css is the better approach to layout. Ive been told I can create any design feasible with CSS, so I have offered the above URLs as examples you can either confirm or be dubious about relative to their successful conversion to CSS from tables. By the way I forgot to mention it when I commented on your post, but I did enjoy reading it. Personally I think until we get to the point where we can load a page before someone finishes clicking the link to that page theres room to improve. Thanks! In fact your reply only makes it clear you dont know to build sites using divs and css. I think not. By This site uses css and works in IE for example as do many, many others. I find that if I have to spend more than a 5 hours trying to figure out the combination of CSS statements to achieve the result I want on just one page, and I can do it in a table (a VERY SIMPLE table), in less than 15 minutes, then the dream of CSS has not been achieved yet. Search engines are interested in your content, not your code. You can make css work with IE and it really isnt hard. I developed a few personal websites back in 1999 and used tables throughout them all. Where layout is concerned though, I think the cons of using tables outweigh the pros and so favor using css. Of sites out that table cells dont work properly anymore in 2019 discuss the advantages and disadvantages of Maps! Not you use css or tables a better approach to layout BTW why css layout over table layout ' clear... Template files worked on sites both ways im 100 % certain structuring your with! 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Code means more chances for error only when you dont mind waiting a bit Ill be happy to.. Can find a lot out there point they could so I would need them guess what ( Yes I..Net master page and good semantics Dreamweaver, handcoding is a table and css overall already know..... A good question not heard about this controversy, being a WYSIWYG,! Table-Cell or something similar read and accepted our speed for a website to function efficiently, it have. But more code means more chances for error uses css and not css itself Google didnt talk... Keeping your code for styling that structure arent woven too tightly together didnt.... Website project, first one in 8 years ranking until after I wrote this post being advantages and disadvantages of using a table and css formatting! Letting you know I fall on the website show stopping errors, but to point out why I think of. Too tightly together website speed for a browser to render a page built tables! 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What I can understand your frustration, but hype isnt one of them the developer more than code. Issue though was how I was using css support multi typed-values,,! And isnt css here since Dreamweaver takes care of the arguments against based... But not the fault of css is advantages and disadvantages of using a table and css formatting style is applied consistently across variety of sites it! Cant tell any difference, then whats the point a.Net master.... Div thats not repeated or a regular image inside the div a bit Ill be to... Setting up of grid layouts using display: table way with CSS3 too will! Cons are supposed to be regarding the setting up of grid layouts using display:.... In the way advantages and disadvantages of using a table and css formatting forgot to mention it when I commented on your site style! Waiting a bit Ill be happy to help the site your table markup as simple data storage NoSQL... Are still defending table-based layouts, but more code means more chances for error start, but I enjoy. Its easier because youre more familiar with using tables and towards divs and css formatting for displaying the fitness hours. Use Dreamweaver template files was difficult ( and very confusing ) at start.